tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post7815789944884745295..comments2024-02-29T03:57:00.088-05:00Comments on The Mermaid's Tale: The visible colors: and the falseness of human races as natural categoriesAnne Buchananhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09212151396672651221noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-69247506352048088662014-06-03T09:31:32.433-04:002014-06-03T09:31:32.433-04:00It's hard to have a measured discussion of all...It's hard to have a measured discussion of all of these topics, given their potential inflammatory nature, and their complexity, which can threaten many different vested interests. People, not just in the biomedical community but in general, too often want simple answers, and are less concerned with how correct the answers are, I think.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-36754791298462064772014-06-02T21:29:37.739-04:002014-06-02T21:29:37.739-04:00Agree with you 100%. Even the simplest genotype:p...Agree with you 100%. Even the simplest genotype:phenotype relationship can be much more complicated than first appearances. My intent was really just to counter the notion posed by Nathanial that "race" is a good interpretive proxy for diagnostics....In my experience that is often not the case and at best is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-34533827314695622052014-06-02T16:51:30.944-04:002014-06-02T16:51:30.944-04:00The problem is that we don't yet have adequate...The problem is that we don't yet have adequate ways to speak of think about these things, largely because they've been twisted around for political ends so often.<br /><br />I work in Finland all the time, and know what you mean. But even then, in 'isolates' like Finland or French Canadians, or the Amish etc., things often turn out to be more complex. The rarer the combination of variants, the more local perhaps but also the harder to study what their effects are or to show convincingly that they have them. Put a variant into one strain of mice and it looks as it does in humans, while in another strain it has no effects. And we have personal knowledge of the elusiveness of causation even when one thinks it might be simple.<br /><br />The drive to categorize is often antithetic to the drive to view things as continuous. I'm glad I'm not a medical doctor, so that nothing I say makes any difference to peoples' lives.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-59402825167681957732014-06-02T16:47:25.019-04:002014-06-02T16:47:25.019-04:00Hell, I often can't remember my own kids' ...Hell, I often can't remember my own kids' names! (and it's not just senility). The points apparently need continual repetition, given their widespread impermeability.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-36203858316224874552014-06-02T16:12:35.524-04:002014-06-02T16:12:35.524-04:00For a diagnostic genetic sequencing test (which I ...For a diagnostic genetic sequencing test (which I develop for a living btw) an individual’s ancestry can often be relevant, but usually the critical information for interpretation provided by ancestry is related to the identity of the specific population the individual is descended from within the last few hundred years and whether or not that population was ever reduced to the point of being impacted by disease-associated founder mutations or genetic drift. For example, there are certain genetic markers that are associated with pathogenic mutations in Finnish people that are interpreted as polymorphisms in other Europeans, because in Finnish people they always co-occur in cis (= on same chromosomes) with other pathogenic mutations (and constitute a haplotype of sorts). Knowing this can change the interpretation of a tested individual who has Finnish ancestry with two mutations from that of carrier to affected. Other examples of such relationships are usually population-specific (for example there are similar situations with French Canadians vs French, Japanese vs Korean, Afrikaners vs Dutch) and not something that can be assumed to be always informative at the level of a “race”. This doesn’t mean btw, that there are no genotypic linkages that are important at the broadest levels of human ancestry (races if you like), just that a medical geneticist would much rather know exactly where a person’s family comes from and if anyone else in their family had something similar to what’s being tested for. Great posts on this Wade business btw.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-957668898775342032014-06-02T14:41:24.195-04:002014-06-02T14:41:24.195-04:00Funny story -- I was reading this post, and had fo...Funny story -- I was reading this post, and had forgotten who the author of this blog was. I found myself thinking, "wow, some of this sounds a lot like that great paper by Weiss and Fullerton, 'Racing Around, Getting Nowhere.' I wonder if the author is familiar with it?" Then I saw the comments & felt very silly. But seriously, great work. :)Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11364316598293820961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-47095282471258520672014-06-02T14:06:55.396-04:002014-06-02T14:06:55.396-04:00I'd answer the first by repeating my caveat th...I'd answer the first by repeating my caveat that no analogy is perfect. Human variation follows a rough isolation-by-distance pattern (Jeff Long has showed that this is an approximation, and partly because of geographic and other factors). Also we appear to have spread from Africa by a kind of serial-expansion process. There would have been, among these hunter-gatherers (as a rough stereotype) back and forth each generation because of rules about clan or village exogamy and just plain trade, friendship and so on. This is gene flow not hermetically sealed boundaries.<br /><br />Of course topography leads to unevenness in population size and distribution and hence in genomic variation. But that is not the same as categories, and if one realizes that the admixture models rely on categories identified statistically, and that also depends on sampling and how one specifies the problem, the model is rather arbitrary. Genomic variation isn't uniformly spread like a coat of paint, but it's not parceled into categories.<br /><br />If sequencing will be so cheap, and if (a big, big 'if') genomic data are important predictors, then DNA sequencing can be done without 'race'. Of course, if environments are correlated with self-reported 'race' and if there is some geographic-origin correlation, then there can be some utility to asking about 'race'. But then this is a self-reporting sociocultural phenomenon.<br /><br />My nephew and my niece have one 'white' and one 'black' parent. He lives a 'black' life and she a 'white' one based on jobs, friends, marriage, neighborhood, etc. Should a doctor treat him as 'black' and her as 'white'?<br /><br />This shows, to me, the problem of conveniently falling back on that kind of utility. Genomic background is important, and has geographic-historic relevance. Some variants have different disease risk depending on the sociocultural/geographic background of people when they are sampled by such categories (whether self-reported or investigator-assigned). But if you think in more fluid rather than categorical terms, many subtleties that are just as important, and especially sociocultural (even psychological) factors become important--and there, I think, the categories are most truly real and important--but not because of genes.<br /><br />And what, then, about someone who is Eastern European, or Kasakh, or Korean vs Indonesian. Or Afghans? Or many groups within India? How far from their assigned 'race' peak do they have to be before the utility is lost?<br /><br />Above all, however, it is that the categorical treatment of people for technical, or even the kind of statistical pragmatism you refer to, is too often, one might say too typically, extended to group-based policy. Such as 'don't put money into black school districts' or 'don't give foreign aid to Africans'. Or (a century ago) 'don't try to educate the Chinese coolies, as they're mainly good for laying railway tracks'. If you look at some of the gutter-traffic around this issue recently, you'll see that that is just there (sometimes) under the surface.<br /><br />In a metaphoric way, 'almost blue' is not the same as 'blue' A continuum needs to be evaluated as a continuum.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-51562049173852212832014-06-02T13:41:22.934-04:002014-06-02T13:41:22.934-04:00As usual, beautifully reasoned and written. Should...As usual, beautifully reasoned and written. Should be required reading for anyone following the debate over Nick Wade's book, and I will circulate it. I'm a historian and so have my own arguments against the book, but this is a potent and clear argument from the genetic side. Thank you. Two questions: <br /><br />First, how do you respond to the argument that the visual spectrum has no natural boundaries, like oceans, deserts, and mountain ranges? There's no electromagnetic Sahara causing certain frequencies to bunch up on one side or the other. I think I know the answer, but would like very much to hear how you'd answer.<br /><br />Second, what about the medical side of race? Physicians insist that, until whole-genome sequencing is so cheap and fast it it is part of any medical exam, racial profiling will be a useful proxy for a haplotype that is clinically beneficial. How do population geneticists respond to doctors who say that theoretically, human genomic variation may be a spectrum, but practically, races "work" for a lot of diagnosis?<br /><br />Again, marvelous post. Thanks again.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09163197663539713925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-20056115915924617912014-06-02T11:29:47.244-04:002014-06-02T11:29:47.244-04:00Please pass it my way too.
And yes, this is a g...Please pass it my way too. <br /><br />And yes, this is a great post Ken.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05068601494828074316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-27335145214367440832014-06-02T10:28:47.384-04:002014-06-02T10:28:47.384-04:00Please send my way when it arrives, if they send a...Please send my way when it arrives, if they send as pdf.Holly Dunsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260104967932801186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-88224332674845734852014-06-02T10:19:08.981-04:002014-06-02T10:19:08.981-04:00deGruyter, obviously a very greedy outfit, still m...deGruyter, obviously a very greedy outfit, still makes one pay rather a lot for a reprint of this 40-year old paper. So I have had to order it and wait for my library here to make me a copy. I now do remember the paper, however, and it was widely read at the time.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-6579862144910287822014-06-02T10:17:03.525-04:002014-06-02T10:17:03.525-04:00Well, Frank would be furious that things long know...Well, Frank would be furious that things long known (actually, long before his writing on the subject) have still not been absorbed. Of course, those who haven't 'absorbed' it usually know that--it's intentional. Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-60761981388869512712014-06-02T10:14:25.658-04:002014-06-02T10:14:25.658-04:00I though the same thing! Marshall recently said th...I though the same thing! Marshall recently said this was perhaps his favorite among his essays. Here's the ref: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/semi.1976.16.issue-1/semi.1976.16.1.1/semi.1976.16.1.1.xmlBrad Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172476178619617658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-80515384932118026552014-06-02T10:13:33.393-04:002014-06-02T10:13:33.393-04:00Bravo, Ken. I betcha Frank is smiling.Bravo, Ken. I betcha Frank is smiling.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06948078362926035217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-50572717229697898212014-06-02T08:05:13.048-04:002014-06-02T08:05:13.048-04:00I've read a lot of Sahlins, and he's a ver...I've read a lot of Sahlins, and he's a very smart guy, though of course he has his own polarization (he was one of the faculty members when I was a graduate student at Michigan, and at that time a great manifestation of the then very high level of leading ethnologists. They were seeking a scientific basis for culture and its evolution, and needed to do that in the post-WWII reaction to what the Nazis had done to the world. He became more political and I guess 'post-Modern' and polarizing, but someone like him was so intellectually respectable that, agreeing or not, you learned from reading what he had to say. I'll go back and read Colors and Cultures, which I didn't know of (or don't remember). Thanks for pointing it out.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-37148200157750428972014-06-02T08:02:13.513-04:002014-06-02T08:02:13.513-04:00I think this is a semantic issue on my part. I me...I think this is a semantic issue on my part. I meant that I, you, your baby, and my wife and kids are individual human units. We don't blur into each other. I didn't mean we come as a member of a categorical group like a 'race'. Of course I also didn't mean conjoined twins.Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-45388649245076669092014-06-02T07:45:45.572-04:002014-06-02T07:45:45.572-04:00Great post, Ken. It makes me want to revisit Marsh...Great post, Ken. It makes me want to revisit Marshall Sahlins (1976) "Colors and Cultures."JKWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09292737413026824514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-70851886669594636642014-06-02T07:39:23.122-04:002014-06-02T07:39:23.122-04:00Oop. Nope. Got a bone to pick. "People come i...Oop. Nope. Got a bone to pick. "People come into this world as discrete entities..."-- this sort of thinking, too, could be unraveled, dismantled, even flat-out rejected! But that's for another day. Thanks again. Holly Dunsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260104967932801186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-71363795692919351082014-06-02T07:33:53.157-04:002014-06-02T07:33:53.157-04:00I'm so impressed by this post that I'm mov...I'm so impressed by this post that I'm moved to comment. All I can seem to come up with is thank you. Holly Dunsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260104967932801186noreply@blogger.com