tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post1925173030726165940..comments2024-02-29T03:57:00.088-05:00Comments on The Mermaid's Tale: Random events result in order -- how?Anne Buchananhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09212151396672651221noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-8486535864162773602012-03-22T12:02:11.217-04:002012-03-22T12:02:11.217-04:00This has to do, I think, with the meaning of '...This has to do, I think, with the meaning of 'order' in your message. Suppose there are a myriad of things, each unrelated and different, but that the universe is continuous--like forces, or made of molecules that persist. Then, there will be similarity over time and place in the universe: a carbon atom, beam of light, or pull of gravity will vary more or less continuously from one moment to the next.<br /><br />This doesn't mean the universe is homogeneous. But in any given place or scale etc., statistical patterns result by default, not because there need be any prior, or external, orderer or (as the classical religious argument put it) design.<br /><br />Of course, this does require that the underlying properties like atoms and forces exist, and they form a lower-level type of order.<br /><br />At the ultimate philosophical end of the spectrum would be the anthropic principle: in a totally unordered universe, there would not be humans to see and think about it. So there could be totally disordered universes, that we would not be in and hence could not know about.<br /><br />This also reflect our nature as evolutionary beings, which is really your last paragraph. We evolved to perceive and react to orderly things, because if our ancestors couldn't make sense of things in a competitive universe, they wouldn't have reproduced.<br /><br />So there may disorder even in our universe, that we're just not equipped to detect. Even 'randomness' is a concept related to 'order', so real disorder could be of some entirely different type.<br /><br />Given this, to me, the question becomes one about causation: is there truly probabilistic causation (as opposed to causation that, by any measure we happen to have, seems to be probabilistic, such as quantum phenomena and many others), and how can that be?<br /><br />If coin-flipping machines can be built that make the outcome entirely predictable (it's been done), does that imply that everything else that appears to be probabilistic (or disorderly) is really just our misperception of underlying order?Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-76806432929280505912012-03-22T10:30:59.165-04:002012-03-22T10:30:59.165-04:00Although not directly related to the discussion in...Although not directly related to the discussion in the post, regarding the rise of order from seeming disorder I have recently come across a branch of mathematics which may interest you known as Ramsey Theory. "One might summarize the philosophy that lies behind Ramsey theory as follows 'a sufficiently large system, no matter how random, must contain highly organized subsystems.'"(http://www.math.unh.edu/~dvf/532/Ramsey)<br /><br />I find it interesting mainly for its philosophical implications regarding the inevitable existence of order in the universe. <br /><br />The question remains though (for me, at least)-- to what extent is order 'inherent' in the universe and to what extent is it a product of our consciousnesses in an attempt to organize large sets of data resulting from sense-perceptions?Arjunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388786712611397453noreply@blogger.com