tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post8601330745753118577..comments2024-02-29T03:57:00.088-05:00Comments on The Mermaid's Tale: The Dirt on Ancient Civilization: Lost Soils and Lessons LostAnne Buchananhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09212151396672651221noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-76941133311703156142014-01-07T20:36:38.483-05:002014-01-07T20:36:38.483-05:00I don't see where you get your interpretation ...I don't see where you get your interpretation of this post, but it and Jim W's comment seem clear enough that sustainability is and has been an issue, often recognized, but that's worse when the land is abused on a large scale. Nobody thinks that pre-agricultural societies were not complex in their own ways, and I don't see any such suggestion in Reed's post. You may disagree with how or whether or how much agriculture enabled the other aspects of its societies, but I don't see any denigration of the earlier ancestors here!Ken Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02049713123559138421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-72659201224689469952014-01-07T19:31:44.720-05:002014-01-07T19:31:44.720-05:00You provide an excellent "long view" her...You provide an excellent "long view" here, but it is a shame that you start by perpetuating so many misconceptions about pre-agricultural societies (especially as a student of archaeology). The notions that that they were not exceedingly complex or that they did not have extensive artistic traditions, for example, are both just completely wrong. I know of few works of art as spectacular as the Chauvet cave paintings, for example. Not only does perpetuating these myths about the past reinforce stereotypes about contemporary indigenous peoples, it also reinforces powerful cultural narratives regarding progress and modernity, narratives which arguably have us all in this ecological mess in the first place. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1812431336777691886.post-31524938347252042002014-01-07T13:59:33.117-05:002014-01-07T13:59:33.117-05:00As one of the world's few remaining pro-agri t...As one of the world's few remaining pro-agri types, I find myself in complete agreement with your post. As you emphasize, it's no so much farming per se that has led to environmental harm, but population growth, origin of the state and cities, commerce, all of which are conditioned on farming but not inevitable consequences of it (except a certain amount of population growth). I think your deepest insight is the comment that "the repeat offender, human shortsightedness, is not inherent to agriculture, but to people...." Precisely. Hunter-gatherers can be just as shortsighted, but they don't have the capacity for much environmental impact. One of my favorite quotes on this subject comes from the agricultural geographer Gene Wilken in his excellent book "Good Farmers" on traditional agricultural resource management in Mesoamerica (UCalif 1987, p. 268):<br /><br />"Some traditional systems have enviable resource conservation records, others do not. But those that have maintained or enhanced their resource base over time merit examination. These successful experiments by generations of farmers in particular places constitute lessons that should not be ignored or lost.<br /> But before our enthusiasm for centuries-old systems outruns the record, we should note the failures. It is also condescending to view traditional farmers as sagacious husbandmen, imbued with infallible folk wisdom, in mystic harmony with the environment. In fact, they share with their industrialized counterparts the human propensities to respond to short-term opportunities while disregarding long-term costs, to misinterpret the durability and flexibility of agroecosystems, and generally to err. The many past and present examples of depleted resources and degraded landscapes attest to the potential for traditional mismanagement. But failure is part of the agricultural experience and has as much to teach, in its own way, as success" (p. 268).<br /><br />And this from someone who really knows and respects traditional farmers. But as you point out, before states, cities, widespread commercial farming, etc., the failures of farmers had impacts that were small-scale and local, not regional.Jim Woodnoreply@blogger.com